Arthur Kiong, CEO of Far East Hospitality, featured as a guest on the So This Is My Why podcast with host and producer, Ling Yah

Ep 147: “I landed the dream job… because my dog was sick!” | Arthur Kiong (CEO, Far East Hospitality)

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Welcome to Episode 147!

With Arthur Kiong, CEO of Far East Hospitality, which is part of Far East Orchard
Limited, a listed company under Far East Organization.

Since Arthur joined the organisation in July 2012, he has been instrumental in growing the company’s hospitality management business through joint-ventures and acquisitions. Over the last nine years, Far East Hospitality’s portfolio grew from 18 properties in Singapore to 105 hotels and serviced residences in nine countries – Austria, Australia, Denmark, Germany, Hungary, Japan, Malaysia, New
Zealand, and Singapore, with more in its development pipeline.

In more than 35 years of his career in the hospitality industry, Arthur has worked at prominent international hospitality brands including Banyan Tree Hotels & Resorts, The Ritz-Carlton (Singapore and New York), Mandarin Oriental Hotel Group (Hong Kong), Hyatt Hotels Corporation and Westin Hotels Resort. 

Arthur also plays an active role in championing change in the hospitality industry, and currently serves as First Vice President of the Singapore Hotel Association.

In 2020, he was appointed as the hospitality representative in the National Jobs Council – a task force set up to establish jobs and upskilling opportunities during the Covid-19 pandemic.

In Nov 2022, Arthur received the Executive of the Year – Hospitality & Leisure award from the Singapore Business Review Management Excellence Awards for initiating transformative changes to FEH’s operations and steered the group’s expansion in recent years despite the pandemic.

Arthur was a recipient of the Special Recognition Award from Singapore Tourism Board in 2016 for having played a key role in rallying support for driving productivity and manpower development initiatives in the hotel industry.


In this STIMY episode, Arthur shares his unconventional career journey from failing his A levels, selling Japanese slimming products, becoming a radio DJ celebrity, to finally finding his true calling in the hospitality industry. 

Are you intrigued yet? You’ll just have to listen to this STIMY episode!

P/S: And don’t forget leave a rating & review!


A special shoutout to Karl Mak (STIMY Ep 55) & his team at Hepmil. 

They’re the ones who made this sub-series possible and I definitely couldn’t do it without them!

P/S: This episode is available on YouTube too!


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    So This Is My Why podcast

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    Arthur Kiong, CEO of Far East Hospitality, featured as a guest on the So This Is My Why podcast with host and producer, Ling Yah


    • 00:00 Introduction to Arthur Kiong’s Journey
    • 2:46 Adrian Tan
    • 3:50 I thought my life was pretty much over
    • 6:16 I didn’t want to live
    • 7:03 Becoming a celebrity radio DJ overnight!
    • 8:35 The seductive world
    • 10:36 I saw no future?
    • 12:16 Becoming a restaurant greeter?!
    • 12:54 Oh Lord, what have I done?!
    • 15:00 Sales is hard!
    • 15:25 First big breakthrough
    • 16:33 Interesting hospitality initiatives
    • 19:31 The war saved me – Grand Hyatt
    • 22:27 I found nothing!
    • 23:50 That scares me. I don’t want it to be true
    • 24:44 The difference between knowing and knowing
    • 26:27 Landing the dream job at The Mandarin Oriental Hong Kong
    • 28:01 Get a grip, man!
    • 39:34 Why return to Singapore?
    • 30:48 The career breakthrough that allowed me to go to the Ritz
    • 33:34 Superman on Earth?
    • 34:58 Moving the whole family to New York
    • 35:31 The wise Chinese saying, “When the cucumber turns green, it means the time is ripe”
    • 36:49 That fight between the head office and owner o.0
    • 39:29 I wanted to architect my resume
    • 42:03 Joining Far East Hospitality
    • 44:38 What is Singapore-inspired hospitality?
    • 48:41 The challenges of being a CEO (that no one sees)
    • 49:41 The relationship between the owner and the CEO
    • 50:15 God
    • 51:24 The Second Act in your career?
    • 52:52 Biggest career advice for fresh graduates
    • 54:15 Do you feel like you’ve found your why?
    • 55:10 What kind of legacy do you want to leave behind?
    • 55:29 What are the most important qualities of a successful person?

    If you’re looking for more inspirational stories, check out:

    • Justin Byam Shaw: Co-Owner of the Evening Standard & the Independent – on building the UK’s largest media empire
    • Lucas Lu: Head of Zoom Asia – on his secret to climbing the corporate ladder to the top of the tech world in Asia!
    • Loh Lik Peng: Founder & CEO, Unlisted Collection – on how a lawyer transformed himself into one of Singapore’s top hoteliers with 40 properties under him (including 9 Michelin starred restaurants!)
    • Fong Wai Kheng: On life as the 4th generation owner of Tong Heng – Singapore’s best, 100-year-old confectionary town with its famous diamond-shaped egg tarts
    • Adrian Tan: The Late President of the Singapore Law Society & King of Singapore

    If you enjoyed this episode, you can: 

    Leave a Review

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    External Links

    Some of the things we talked about in this STIMY Episode can be found below:

    Arthur Kiong, CEO of Far East Hospitality, featured as a guest on the So This Is My Why podcast with host and producer, Ling Yah

    Ep 147: "I landed the dream job... because my dog was sick!" | Arthur Kiong (CEO, Far East Hospitality)


    Arthur Kiong: In my business, at least in that period of time, you've never heard of anyone from Asia going to America to become a foreign talent for them.

    And this wasn't just any city in America. This was in New York, in America. And I have to think to myself, seriously, in the whole of America, you can't find a talent to fill that position. That you have to come to little Singapore to be able to find someone to expatriate into, into that position at great expense.

    Wow, if one is given that opportunity, then okay, let the games begin. I'll go there and, and compete and hope to survive it. And, and that was what I did.

    Ling Yah: You said how talent always went one way at the time, I imagine for them in New York, they must've thought the same as well and go, what is this Asian doing here?

    Arthur Kiong: Yeah, .

    Yes, yes, yes. And of course I would tell them, you know, there's a wise Chinese saying when the cucumber turns green, it means the time is ripe.

    And they're like, wow, such profound, what does he mean? I don't know. I just made that up.

    Ling Yah: Hey, STIMIES!

    Welcome to episode 141 of the So This Is My Way podcast.

    I'm your host and producer, Ling Yah, and today's guest is Arthur Kiong.

    Now Arthur Kiong is the CEO of Far East Hospitality, which is a hospitality group that has around a hundred hotels all over the world, including in Singapore. But Arthur has had a very unconventional start.

    For one thing, he failed his A levels.

    He couldn't go to university. He was hawking Japanese slimming products because he didn't have anything else to do and he really was incredibly depressed. Then he became a radio DJ. An overnight celebrity.

    But along the way he realized that this wasn't for him.

    This life was going down a road he didn't want to go.

    So he made a switch.

    He became a greeter at Prego.

    And as you can imagine, people were shocked.

    And they thought, what are you doing with your life? Why have you quit this prestigious celebrity field well, for this very menial job?

    But that was just the start of Arthur's venture into hospitality. He has really crazy stories in New York, how he would launch campaigns after the Gulf War, how he essentially has forged a career that is incredibly unique and different whilst staying true to himself, and also the values that he holds as a Christian as well. So if you'd like to learn what it takes to be someone who has found something he really loves in the hospitality industry, just listen.

    Because Arthur is the person who has the perfect story.

    Now, are you ready?

    Let's go.

    Hi, Arthur.

    Arthur Kiong: Hi.

    Ling Yah: Thank you so much for joining me on the So This Is My Why podcast today.

    Arthur Kiong: Well, thank you for having me.

    Ling Yah: So I've heard your name quite a lot in the past few years. The first time was because I was asked by a pastor to look into this website called Salt & Light.

    I was looking through all the different testimonials I found yours and I thought, what an incredible story. What crazy stories as well. I this person called Adrian Tan.

    He was the former Singapore Law Society President. Wonderful person, and at the end, I asked him, Who should I interview next?

    And he looked at me, no hesitation, and he said, Arthur Kiong. You really need to get him. So it is such a privilege to have you here.

    Arthur Kiong: Thank you, thank you.

    Ling Yah: I read your book, and he wrote the foreword as well. I'd love to just open by asking what the relationship is between the two of you.

    Arthur Kiong: Well, Adrian is a dear, dear friend.

    We spent 25 years as friends. We first met back in 1995. Actually, he wrote the foreword for my book Five Stones in a Sling. And he is an exceptional human being. I think his demeanor, his disposition, he's just unique. And I miss him dearly.

    Ling Yah: Yeah. When I was researching to your background, it struck me that your background was quite similar to Adrian as well.

    It was very humble, very simple. Could you just kind of share what it was like growing up for you? Because you also kind of shared in other interviews, Singapore back then is not the Singapore we know today. It was lots of rubbish everywhere, you don't have all your transportation. So what was Singapore then?

    Arthur Kiong: Well actually I think from the viewpoint of what are young people's struggles today, the context would be somewhat similar, although the environment, of course, is you know, different, but I think lot of people can relate to the fact that sometimes we start life in despair, and we, we start life hopeless.

    And that's a terrible set of circumstances to be in.

    And the context which I'm describing my situation was, you know in life we have to be on the right escalator. If you're on the right escalator, then you're headed towards the right direction to what we term as progress and prosperity and happiness for our nation, right?

    Or for ourselves. But when you're on the wrong escalator, such as in my case, for whatever reason it was unfathomable to me not to make it to university. It was unfathomable. There's nobody that I know in my circle that did not qualify for university. So when I did not qualify for university, I was very much in despair.

    And I thought my life is pretty much over because plan B would be to get an education abroad. And my parents couldn't afford to send me abroad. So my father said to me at that time, He says, you know what, you have to make your clothes according to the cloth. And, I'm sorry, but you had your shot and you missed it, right?

    So, you have to go out and find work. And, I was thinking to myself, wow, man, I'm starting from such a gap behind my peers. There's just no way I can make it, you know. And and I'm thinking, what can I do?

    I was lost and I was discouraged and I was in a great deal of pain and despair. And so as I'm telling you about this, I can relate to young people who are somewhat hopeless or who somewhat mask their despondency with social media or with video games because there's a lot of pain and anguish that maybe most people don't understand, but I have been there.

    So I understand what it's like to start out with very little.

    Ling Yah: When you were in despair, did you give up and think, I agree, there is nothing left for me. I'll just live life to the best.

    Have fun.

    Arthur Kiong: Well, actually, to be honest I didn't want to live. I didn't want to be here to be honest.

    And so I drifted from point to point because I'm lost, I'm aimless, I don't know what to do. There are very limited options, right, for what is in my world things that my peers were doing.

    They were becoming professionals and I was never going to be one and I don't know what to do in that world.

    So I was just lost and trying to find myself, yeah.

    Ling Yah: How did you end up selling Japanese slimming starch?

    Arthur Kiong: Oh, just because there was a job that was available and I applied for that job and it was what I could get at that time. So, it, it was my lot, I thought, you know.

    Ling Yah: Yeah. And then you called Lina So?

    Arthur Kiong: I called Lina So who was then a well known... radio personality, and I was very grateful that she had the time to actually talk to me and encouraged me to apply for a job in it was not MediaCorp then, it was the Singapore Broadcasting Corporation.

    So I thought when I was applying, I was trying to apply to be a stagehand because that was the job that was available, and, they asked me to take a voice test, and I'm thinking like, seriously?

    I mean, how important is testing, testing 1, 2, 3? I mean, you need a voice test for that. So, one thing led to another and I found myself a job in radio.

    Ling Yah: And you got that job because you could pronounce certain words that Chinese people couldn't pronounce.

    Arthur Kiong: Yeah, because at that time, on the media, most of the male announcers were of every other race except Chinese. So obviously you need to have a Chinese voice in order to appeal to the population, which is, I suppose, 77 percent or 75 percent then that was Chinese.

    Most Chinese people would pronounce it Thursday the 13th, and I happen to be able to pronounce it as Thursday the 13th.

    We're excited that, oh my gosh, you know, there's a guy who can pronounce Thursday the 13th. That was my inroad into the world of radio.

    Ling Yah: And did you become a celebrity overnight?

    Arthur Kiong: Yeah, because it was the only radio station in town. I used to jest by saying, you're listening to the best radio station. Of course, we're the only radio station. And, and I was one of two. male disc jockeys at that time, so I got 50 percent market share.

    Ling Yah: What was that like? Did you feel like suddenly life was coming onto the right track?

    Arthur Kiong: Oh yeah, it I mean, when you have nothing, and then overnight in that time, in that era, somewhat of a celebrity status because you're on national radio and you have your own programs and So, your name.

    Yes. And you get to interview the pop stars of the day. You have access to all the coolest places and everybody wants to know you because, they think you're some kind of celebrity and that world is very intoxicating. And it is incredibly seductive.

    And what possessed me, at that particular point of my life to give that up and to go back to hotel school was nothing short of an act of God because why would I do that?

    I mean, you know you have the the popularity. I was fairly well off because you know, relatively well paid especially with the side hustles that you can do in the entertainment business. And then to give that all up to go back to hotel school and to be a waiter in a restaurant.

    What possessed me to do that is the concept of sacrifice.

    The concept of sacrifice is you sacrifice your now, or what you hold dear now for something in the future.

    That is an act of faith as well. So yeah, I'm glad I did as I sit here and I reflect and I'm thinking young people when they're going through this kind of a situation to be able to sacrifice what you hold dear and what you love now for something which is in the future and you're uncertain and to take that leap of faith.

    I encourage you and I know it's hard, but you will be pleased that you did.

    Ling Yah: But it's remarkable to me that you were so young and you already had that clarity of sacrifice now for a future that is not known.

    Arthur Kiong: Yes. Now I can tell you that I'm not that bright and I'm not that philosophical. That's why I say it must be an act of God because I really don't know what possessed me to actually do that.

    But I was clear that I didn't want to be spinning the top 40 hits at 40.

    Ling Yah: Yeah. Because you could see there was no future in that?

    Arthur Kiong: Because in the media business at that time, I did the math, there's only one radio station. Because at that time there was one radio station. And you can have multiple radio stations, but it belongs to one entity.

    So it's somewhat of a monopoly. And having the academic qualifications was very important. I couldn't do anything beyond pop music.

    And I couldn't do current affairs. I couldn't do an interview like this. Because... , yeah, that was an instrumental that they banned.

    But one is limited when one is working in a statutory board without the accompanying academic qualifications. So, that was end of the road if I wanted to be in that business.

    And also, knowing myself, I am stage shy, and there's a difference. And I think young people who are listening to this podcast may want to register the point that what you may be good at doing can conflict with what you like to do.

    And because I have got stage, right going on stage, just because it is perceived that you can do it doesn't mean that you enjoy doing it. So I didn't see myself in the entertainment business in my 40s.

    So I said, okay, if that's not the trajectory you want, you must not overstay your welcome.

    And you must get off the train because, you know, this business is seductive and the entertainment business is seductive. And the longer you stay, the harder it is to get out. It's like quicksand. So I thought, two years, that was it, and I left it to go to hotel school.

    Ling Yah: And then you end up being a waiter at Prego.

    Arthur Kiong: Yes.

    Was that something that I wasn't a waiter, I was a greeter at Prego. I was a level below the waiter.

    Ling Yah: Well, I mean, I wasn't even a waiter. I was supposed to be the runner.

    Arthur Kiong: Yes, I was a greeter at Prego. And it was yeah, it was a very humbling experience because people recognize me and they say, what are you doing?

    And you know, it, it's like, I thought you were here and now you are like, wow. Yeah, what happened? And it was very, tiresome trying to explain myself, and frankly speaking, as Adrian Tan would say, when you're explaining, you're losing. And I think as a lawyer, you will appreciate that. So it was a difficult time.

    Ling Yah: Was it clear what would happen after Prego?

    Arthur Kiong: No, it wasn't clear. I was at that time asking myself, Oh Lord, what have I done? What have I done? I've given up something which wasn't great, but it was something and then now I can't see a future.

    So these, these things have a tendency to happen to me, you know, these odd incredible happenstances, right?

    So, one day the director of sales of the hotel came and said to me, young man, have you ever considered a career in sales? And I said to him no.

    I have done sales before. That was my first job and I don't want to go back doing that, you know, knocking on doors and, and asking for the business and I'm thinking, no, I don't think, I want to do that.

    And I didn't say that to him at the time. He was very insistent. He says, come to my office and let's see what we can do for you.

    So when he offered me a job, it was a step up. Because it was a step up and I was thinking to myself, it can't be more difficult than what I'm doing, right? So I decided okay, I'll give it a shot and then things just took off from there

    Ling Yah: In retrospect, what do you think he saw in you?

    Arthur Kiong: I don't know because you know what if you're talking about eager and enthusiastic and hardworking and have a positive aptitude. I would say at the time there were 66 of us who were in that same cohort that was looking for a break. And above us, there were 32 graduates in this establishment alone.

    There were 32 graduates that they recruited from the universities in America to open this establishment at the time. And on top of them, there were eight scholars. So there were eight scholars, there were 32 graduates, and in our cohort of hotel graduates, there were 66 of us.

    And below us, just one level, there was 102 people who were what you call the certificate skill cohort.

    So the competition was pretty incredible. And why he chose me, I have no idea. I have no idea.

    Ling Yah: And did you find it something that was very easy, natural for you when you started?

    Arthur Kiong: No. Sales is difficult, you know, trying to ask for the business at a time whereby there was a glut of hotels in Singapore.

    So, firstly, what makes your property stand out and why should I give you the business? And there's so much competition out there. So it was a struggle.

    I was out there jostling for business like everybody else.

    Ling Yah: What was your first big breakthrough?

    Arthur Kiong: My first big breakthrough was a piece of business that was giving us, I can't remember the precise details, but something like 600 rooms a day for three nights and several movements.

    So several movements means 600 rooms. come in. They stay for 3 nights. That's, if you multiply, that's 1, 800 room nights. And then that's Movement 1.

    Then comes Movement 2, then comes Movement 3. So I happened to land this account, which was an American incentive house. And obviously, that made my quota for the year.

    I mean easily surpassed it. And I got the attention of my bosses, who then thought I was a genius. And then they promoted me you know, to other things.

    I think I went into conference services from there on and again was incredibly fortunate and got a big break and, and came up with some interesting initiatives that got attention of my bosses then. And then it went on from there.

    Ling Yah: So what interesting initiatives do you come up with?

    Arthur Kiong: Well, at that time I was working in a hotel that has 2, 000 rooms. And, you've got 2, 000 rooms in the hotel, and the hotel has 17 restaurants. So it's very big.

    And so, I was thinking, how do you get the people in the rooms, because you have 2, 000 rooms, and you multiply that with the number of people who occupy those rooms so easily, right you're going to get 3, 000 people there about in the building every day. And you've got 3, 000 people captured.

    How do you get them into our 17 restaurants that are in need of business?

    So the point is, you've got to tell them what your restaurants are offering.

    Now, how do you do that?

    So I was thinking to myself, at the bedside panel of the rooms, because this is very old fashioned. It was back in the day, right? There's in house piped in music. So you press channel number one, you've got classical music. Press channel number two, you've got Chinese music. Press channel number three, you've got pop music .There's three channels. Something like that.

    So I thought to myself, why don't I, instead of playing a cassette tape, because that's what they played then, a cassette tape of classical music, which I think nobody's really interested to listen. It's just muzak or some instrumental music.

    Why don't I record something like a radio session, and we call it XYZ FM.

    So when you turn on that channel, it will say, you know, you're listening to XYZ FM, or whatever the name is, XYZ FM, and playing for you the hottest hits and telling you what's happening in the city right now.

    And in this hotel, there is restaurant this and restaurant that, and they have promotions this and promotion that, and why don't you come down and you just say a code and you will get a discount or something like that.

    You've got the guy in the room, he's in the morning, he's listening to the music, then you are communicating with him. And the beautiful part of it is he's staying only two or three days. So you use the same tape. You actually don't have to do it live, but you can give the impression it's live, but you just play the same loop because tomorrow is a different guest, right?

    So it's not that difficult to do except that you have to execute the idea. And so, That's what I did.

    Ling Yah: And was the execution hard?

    Arthur Kiong: No, it wasn't. Because it's just recording. I did. They got me to do it. They said, well, great idea. Why don't you do it? I said, okay. It wasn't difficult for me because that's what I used to do, right?

    Yeah. So, you just record a two hour tape each week, and then you just play it for the whole week. The guests are coming in and out, so they all think it's new.

    You get the occasional guy who says, hmm, I think I heard that before. But it doesn't matter because as long as the promotion's for the week are still relevant. So that's what I did.

    So that got the attention of my bosses and then, then I moved up and actually then got headhunted to work somewhere else.

    Ling Yah: Hey STIMIES!

    Just interrupting this to say that I hope you've been enjoying this episode with Arthur Kiong and if you like what we've been doing at STIMY and you would like to support us, you could do so for as little as 10 cents.

    You can do so by heading to

    I'll leave it in the links in the show notes. Every little bit helps because all these episodes take a lot of resources to produce and I would love to continue doing so at a very high quality.


    Let's get back to this episode with Arthur Kiong.

    And you also struggle at times, like with the Grand Hyatt story that you shared before.

    Arthur Kiong: Yeah. Because you know what, with that story I was doing a job that I've never done before.

    So because I've never done this job before, I didn't really know what to expect, so I'm looking for direction as to what would the various stakeholders want in order to put together a communication plan to launch the hotel successfully. But I didn't manage to get the answers I was looking for, right?

    So I wasn't able to put together a communication plan and our competition has already launched. And they were getting business and we have yet to even get our communication plans in order and time was ticking.

    So I was thinking to myself, good grief, you know, I think I'm a goner because I can't seem to get the various parties to agree as to what is the target audience and what is going to be our message and how do we communicate this message in the tone and the style.

    I need some direction because I've never done this job before. And anyway, I didn't get that. And so, the competition was doing very well. We were struggling. And then, a war broke out.

    So, when a war breaks out, whatever was booked will be cancelled. And everything is suspended, right? And people move on.

    They will change their plans. So, for example programs that are going to a destination would then be done domestically. So, the business is gone.

    In a way I was saved because you know what, I didn't know what I was doing. The other guy may, but now there's no business, so it doesn't matter.

    So we're back to zero, you know. Nil nil, right? And then during the time where the war was going on in the Gulf, this was during the Gulf War in the 1990s, while the war was going on, I thought to myself, what would be the outcome if this war were to cease?

    It has to cease someday, right?

    We have to work on the basis of hope that the war would cease. And if the war ceases, what would be the circumstances then? And what would people want?

    There will be some pent up demand for sure. So I made those plans and the war lasted a very short while. It lasted, I think, several months.

    Now, the thing is this in every establishment, you have something called a marketing budget. They spend all their money. I haven't spent a cent. So when it was time to expand our launch of the hotel.

    I had the resources that nobody had, and then we executed the plan. So everyone was like incredibly impressed at the timing and the courage of holding back and not panicking.

    While everyone was doing their respective strategies. You just held your ground and you waited for the right time. That was just brilliant. And I'm like it wasn't me. It wasn't me. Not my abilities, can I boast?

    So it happens a lot, you know, these kind of rather uncanny, unexplainable happenstance. And I look deep for a naturalistic explanation.

    Ling Yah: Yeah. And then when you look deep, what do you find?

    Arthur Kiong: I found nothing!

    I can't pinpoint what is it that made me so incredibly fortunate. So I'm thinking, do I have some exceptional ability? Be honest, look at yourself and think about it. And is it because you work harder?

    Is it because you are this or because you're that? I can tell you that at a certain level, right, everybody works hard. Everybody has got gifts. Everybody is talented in some way, shape or form. So, I couldn't find a naturalistic explanation as to what was creating this cycle of fortuitous outcomes.

    Now, wanting to find that answer was very important to me because if you can find what is the secret, what is the, the thing that gives you that incredible opportunity then you can hone it, and you can control it, and you can replicate it, and you can use it to be successful for the rest of your days, right?

    I mean, that's what we're looking for. But I couldn't find a naturalistic explanation.

    I dread to think if you can't find a naturalistic explanation, then what is the alternative? Then the alternative has to be a spiritual explanation.

    And that scares me. That scares me incredibly because I don't want that to be true.

    Ling Yah: Yeah, because you like to be in control.

    Arthur Kiong: Yeah! I like to be in control. So, if it's a spiritualistic explanation, it's kind of woo woo, right?


    But you know something? So, cut to the chase, right? In all my search, I couldn't help but conclude that it must be a spiritual reason. And if it is a spiritual reason, then what follows is frightening and is unthinkable because If there is an Almighty that is personal, and you believe that, then you have to get to know who He is and find out what He wants.

    And that means you have to give up control of everything that you hold dear. Stepping forth in the faith that what He has for you will be better than what you dream of yourself.

    That is a frightening frightening outcome but I had no options but to conclude that.

    Ling Yah: Yeah. It surprises me that you would say you were frightened because it was not as though the concept of faith of a god is foreign to you.

    You were born in a Christian family and there are plenty of people born into it who would then say, I don't want to inherit something my parents believe. I don't believe in it. They go off and then something happens and they go, actually, God does exist. I need to come back. But they don't go through this feeling of deep fear almost.

    And that immediate thought of, if it's true, I have to give everything up.

    Arthur Kiong: Well, I would say that, you know, there's a difference between knowing and knowing.

    There's a different level of knowing. And I think people are quite happy to have a religion, as long as the religion is within control.

    You know, the religion must be within control. It is there when you need it. to provide comfort. And it is there when you need it, to request for something big.

    But on the day to day level, it cannot be there to control you. You want to control the religion, or the relationship. To have it control you, and have to give up everything.

    Because that's what it means. If you genuinely believe that, if you genuinely believe that there is a God, that changes everything.

    So, there's a level of knowing, but you don't want to go beyond that and really know because you may not like what you really know. For one, I know that I'm an unholy person. I don't want to be in the presence of a holy God.

    I don't think he will accept me. You know, that's one level of being fearful. And the other fearful is... Good grief, what does he want of me?

    So those are very existential questions that looms in my mind at some point.

    Ling Yah: Do you feel that that question intensified when you were sent to Hong Kong?

    Even though you had no experience, you couldn't speak Cantonese as well.

    Arthur Kiong: Yeah, I had the dream job.

    The Mandarin Oriental in Hong Kong at that time was the hotel. It was regarded as one of the best hotels in the world and how I landed that job, right?

    yeah, it was it was a it was a really weird story because a headhunter called my home. And because my dog was sick, my wife was at home. And because my wife was at home, she picked up the call from the headhunter.

    Now this is back in the day of the 1980s Right, so there wasn't data roaming. You don't have cell phone. You just have to contact somebody on the landline and that was the way it is.

    So the headhunter spoke to my wife and said you know, I'd like to speak to Arthur. And my wife said, well, actually, he's traveling. And the headhunter said, oh, can I call him wherever he is?

    So my wife gave him the number of the hotel that I was staying. And it so happened that on that evening, because the reason why we're traveling is because we're on a sales trip and in the evenings, usually you're not in your room because you're entertaining.

    But on that evening, I happen to be in my room. So I managed to then take the call and the person said, can I arrange an interview for you to meet a prospective employer who's interested in your skills? And I said sure. And it so happened that it was in Chicago, a place that I was going to. So it was a series of incredible coincidences and I happened to then then in Chicago. Met with the person from the Mandarin and we hit it off and and I got the job.

    So I was in Hong Kong having this incredible job and I attended church. I was standing there and the pastor said, you know, if the spirit is talking to you, would you raise your hand? Oh, these things are really, gee whiz, you know.

    I found my hand going up and I'm thinking to myself, what's going on?

    And so I closed my eyes because it was hugely embarrassing.

    And he says, would you stand? And I found myself standing. And my wife is, you know, this is really, I mean, seriously?

    And I was standing and my hand was raised and I heard a audible voice, but like a very clear idea, a very clear idea, like somebody speaking to you, a very clear idea.

    I've never had this before. This was a very unusual, rather spooky experience. It was a very clear idea that came to my mind and it said, For all the times I have blessed you, you have not given me thanks.

    And, and I wept. And I wept in a manner that is embarrassing. It's not a little tear from the eye. It's full blown bawling. My wife panicked, you know, she's like, what is happening to you? I'm thinking to myself, get a grip, man. What's happening to you?

    I was sobbing uncontrollably.

    And I did that for an hour, through the service.

    And after that, I felt the weight of the world was lifted. I felt such tremendous peace and joy. And I said to myself, this is amazing. I'm going to go back next Sunday and trying to do that again, because he was just so wonderful. And I went back and I prayed and I was looking for the thing.

    I was trying to replicate this wonderful experience and it never happened ever again in my life.

    Ling Yah: But did it impact you in different ways? Did it make you think, God is real. I need to change the way that I'm doing my life.

    Arthur Kiong: No.

    It did for a short while, it did for a short while and after that I said to myself at that time, okay, let's be reasonable.

    Let's find a naturalistic explanation because there is a difference between knowing and knowing. So, so I was-

    Ling Yah: even though you had that idea that was clear in your head.

    Arthur Kiong: Yes, even though I had the idea and I'm grateful, I'm grateful. At that time I was still in my early thirties, and I wasn't full blown yet.

    I was still very tentative, very careful, and trying to be rational and reasonable.

    Ling Yah: It just makes me think of Jonah and the whale. God sends message after message after message.

    Arthur Kiong: Unfortunately, I'm like that. Yeah, I was a hard nut to crack.

    Ling Yah: Why do you decide it was time to go back to Singapore?

    Arthur Kiong: Because my wife and I were expecting our daughter.

    So it was our first child and we wanted to come back to Singapore. So after a successful stint at the Mandarin Hong Kong, I decided to come back to Singapore.

    Ling Yah: And Mark Greedy had a role to play in your film.

    Arthur Kiong: Yes, wonderful Mr. Mark Greedy.

    At the right time, at the right place again. He offered me an opportunity to come back to Singapore to become a tour operator.

    So for those of us who work in a hotel, to become a tour operator would be like sitting on the opposite side of the fence.

    It was an interesting and novel opportunity and I did that for a while, yeah.

    Ling Yah: You said that actually this was a significant career break for you.

    Why is that?

    Arthur Kiong: Yeah, it was.

    Ling Yah: And without it you wouldn't have been able to go to Ritz.

    Arthur Kiong: Wow, you really do your research, Ling Yah. I have to say I'm very impressed.

    Yeah, it was, because you know what?

    When I sat on the opposite side of the fence to be a tour operator, I had a unique perspective of where does the various market segments business go to each hotel?

    So I knew that the Shangri La had this type of business, which is quite different from the Mandarin Oriental in Singapore, which is quite different from the Hyatt, which is quite different from the at that time, the Westin Stamford and the Westin Plaza, different from the Raffles Hotel.

    And so I had a good idea as to what the different segments of business that's coming in that requires, because in the tour operation business, really is you are, you are, you're selling transfers and you're selling itineraries, right, to take people to the various places and attractions.

    What we offer is pretty standard, except the itinerary changes, but why would people go to different hotels and different hotel specialisers in different market segments? And who are the people in each of these hotels that are managing and are selling to these respective segments? So that's a very interesting insight to have as a tour operator.

    You never would have that if you worked in a hotel. Because you see everybody else as a competition, right? And you think that you are doing pretty well in your market segments. You don't have if you like, a bird's eye glimpse of where the various segments are located. Now, why is this important?

    Because when the Ritz Carlton was looking for a director of sales, the first question they asked me is, would you be able to assemble a team?

    I said, not only will I assemble you a team, I'll assemble you the dream team. Because I know who are the various people in the respective hotels that cater to the precise segment that will be necessary to compose the market mix that the Ritz Carlton would want.

    Ling Yah: And I'm guessing no one could do that.

    Arthur Kiong: Well, I do not know of any. I mean, there may be, but I don't know of someone who would be able to do that as naturally.

    So again, it's a right time. It's a right place. It was incredibly fortuitous. Now I will use the word blessed because I don't believe that it's all luck anymore.

    So yeah.

    Ling Yah: I thought it was very interesting.

    Once you said you go into Ritz Carlton when you were at a place in the career where you were Superman on earth.

    Arthur Kiong: Oh, yeah. Okay. What I meant by that, it's not it's not a self glorifying statement. I don't mean that. What I meant by that was Superman on Earth, meaning that as a Singaporean working for time, I believe that still is one of the best hotels.

    And as a Singaporean, knowing your market, you have got tremendous advantages. So it's like you're Superman on Earth, meaning that gravitational force is different. So you, you of course seem so invincible, right? Why don't Superman go back to the planet Krypton and compete with everybody else there to see how he fares?

    That's what I meant by that. And so at that time as a marketeer of a hotel, I thought to myself, you know, the reflection of your professional standing is not relevant if you are playing with a deck of cards that are stacked in your favor.

    If you really want to see whether you are professionally capable, why don't you compete with the Americans in America where they have the home ground advantage and see how you do.

    That was what I was thinking about, you know.

    If one is really courageous, give up what is your advantage and compete with somebody else on his advantage and see how you fare.

    Ling Yah: And you really did. You went to New York.

    Arthur Kiong: And I went to New York, yes.

    Ling Yah: And you moved your whole family there.

    Arthur Kiong: And I moved my family to New York. which was of course, Don't try this at home. It's a, it's a huge, uh, It's a huge decision, yeah. Yeah.

    Ling Yah: What was behind the decision?

    Arthur Kiong: Well, because you know it was flying the national flag really, because if you think about it expatriate talent only traveled one way at the time.

    The people from the West come and become expatriates in our part of the world because we import the talent, it's called foreign talent. And really, in my business, at least in that period of time, you've never heard of anyone from Asia going to America to become a foreign talent for them.

    And this wasn't just any city in America. This was in New York, in America. And I have to think to myself, seriously, in the whole of America, you can't find a talent to fill that position. That you have to come to little Singapore to be able to find someone to expatriate into, into that position at great expense.

    Wow, if one is given that opportunity, then okay, let the games begin. I'll go there and, and compete and hope to survive it. And, and that was what I did.

    Ling Yah: You said how talent always went one way at the time, I imagine for them in New York, they must've thought the same as well and go, what is this Asian doing here?

    Arthur Kiong: Yeah, .

    Yes, yes, yes. And of course I would tell them, you know, there's a wise Chinese saying when the cucumber turns green, it means the time is ripe.

    And they're like, wow, such profound, what does he mean? I don't know. I just made that up. But yeah, so I was a novelty. I was a novelty and most people haven't really heard of Singapore and think we are part of China.

    So there was a lot of. Okay, let's see what you've got.

    That was a challenging time.

    Ling Yah: And how did you prove yourself to them?

    Arthur Kiong: There is a story that is already circulating on social media. Unless you have another story. Yeah, so I won't cover old ground, but I would say that, yeah, I was, again, incredibly fortunate and I did a very successful advertising campaign, much to the objection and much to the chagrin of my corporate bosses at that time, who thought it was a really bad idea, but I pressed the point and gathered support to execute this campaign.

    And because of series of incredible circumstances it turned out to be one of the best advertising campaigns that has ever been launched.

    Again, I wanted to make the point. It's nothing to do with me. It's just an incredible turn of circumstances that that put me in that position.

    Ling Yah: I can't help but wonder what it was that drove you to press the point, even though everyone was clearly against you, because that's a problem that most people will struggle with.

    I feel a certain way, but my boss doesn't think I'm just going to shut up now. That's just easier, but you stood your ground.

    Arthur Kiong: Because at the time I reasoned this way. Now, if I were to toe the corporate line. If things go south, will the corporate body defend me or will I be out to fend for myself? And my conclusion is I think I'll be out to fend for myself.

    I don't think they will say, Oh, it's not his fault that things didn't go well. The corporate body takes responsibility.

    I don't think it's going to be like that. I think it's going to be well, you know, we took a bet on the guy. We thought he was, able to do it. I guess it didn't work out the way it was. And so I'll be the sacrificial lamb.

    So since I'm going to be the sacrificial lamb one way or another, then I might as well have it my way and I go out fighting because if I'm going to be the person's head on the chopping block, then I rather that I forced my point and since then it has got to be done this way. Rather than relegate it to somebody else who is not going to defend me.

    So. So that was the story.

    Ling Yah: So when the advertisement went up on 9/ 11 and obviously it had tremendously positive impact, how did that have an impact in terms of your career? What happened after that?

    Arthur Kiong: You know I like to have this saying success has many fathers, failure is an orphan, right?

    So when the... Advertisement was successful then everybody's like, Hey, we knew that it was going to be. It was a bit of a dicey move, but we knew that you could do it. I mean, great job.

    And, you know, So it was a corporate celebration. Right. And I got promoted to take charge of the entire West Coast at that time.

    Ling Yah: What I've noticed is that you've gone to so many different hotel chains in different countries as well. Was there an idea in your head of, this is all the places I want to go to get experience or was it just whatever door opens that seems interesting?

    Arthur Kiong: Oh no, it was very deliberate. I wanted to architect my resume.

    Ling Yah: Yes, you've said that before.

    Arthur Kiong: If you want to architect your resume, you have to say that you know, what would I require as my next step in order to build my resume. You want to be in the driving seat of building your resume, because people, when they look at your resume, it must tell a consistent story.

    For example, if you have only been on the job for six months, one year, six months, one year, that's not good. It shows that you are flighty or you got fired or, you know, it's not good.

    If you keep having in your resume wellness break, it's also no good. It means that, you were laid off or you were fired.

    So a resume must show progression. A resume must show consistency and a trajectory that is moving the right direction as to where you're headed for the next job that you are looking at.

    So in the hotel world just being great in your own country doesn't say very much, right.

    So one has to build one's reputation by going into cities whereby the best hotels and the most competitive markets exist. And so at the time, there are four great cities in the world that you got to look at in earlier part of my career. It was Tokyo, Hong Kong, London, New York.

    You can throw Paris in there. These are the cities that the best hospitality professionals at the best hotels were located.

    Ling Yah: And were you clear in mind that after you went to all these places apart from London, you would come back to settle in Singapore?

    Arthur Kiong: Yes, I would like to do that. But I then understood why expatriates are paid the way they are.

    Because you take great risk. Once you are out of your home orbit, people don't remember you. People may know of you, but there is no relationship and there's no connection.

    That's the difference between working for a company like, say, Singapore Airlines or working for a homegrown company that sends you abroad. There's always that rope that they will pull you back. And so there is a future.

    But when one goes out to be an expatriate, you are a ninja.

    And what it means as a ninja is, yes, you're a highly paid person to achieve a mission, but there is no relationship and there's no certainty that you can come back to the home base.

    And the more successful you are, back to what I was talking about, you get sucked in. And then it becomes harder and harder to come back home.

    But I was offered a wonderful opportunity to come back home because of Far East. And I'm very grateful for that opportunity because at the time I was in the peninsula in Hong Kong and the owner of Far East reached out to me to ask me if I would like to come back to look after his portfolio of hotels.

    And that was a blessed calling.

    Ling Yah: Why did you say yes?

    Arthur Kiong: I said yes for many reasons. The primary reason was this.

    When you work for a big luxury brand, everyone wants to know you. Because of what you represent, or what the brand that you represent means to them. So, you hide behind the brand.

    And you are able to be very popular and it opens doors for you in many places because of the brand that you represent.

    The brand creates you.

    But the opportunity that I had then with Far East was, I'm given a unique opportunity to help build a brand. So it's not something that's already built and you're just living off its glow.

    But it's now something that you have to create a glow for. So that was the reason I thought that was a very, very worthwhile challenge. That's one reason.

    The other reason was, there are many hotel companies in Singapore. It doesn't need another hotel company. It needs a hotel brand, I think.

    Singapore needs a hotel brand that truly reflects the Singapore psyche and the Singapore spirit. So that's where I coined the term Singapore inspired hospitality.

    Because there is such a thing as Thai hospitality, there is such a thing as European hospitality, there is such a thing as American and Japanese hospitality, etc.

    But is there such a thing called Singapore hospitality?

    And if you ask people what that means, they would tell you, oh, it means that in your hotel you serve laksa and chicken rice. But it's got to go beyond that, right?

    Because cuisine cannot be reflective of the personality of Thai hospitality. You know, it's got to be more than that.

    So I thought long and hard about what can we create that would have a hotel company that reflects Truly the Singapore spirit, which I coin in four lines, which is you want to provide comfort without being excessive because that's a very Singaporean way, right?

    We want to provide aesthetics without being ostentatious because Singaporeans appreciate the aesthetics, but we're not ostentatious people.

    Those four things that I just mentioned actually underscores the Singapore story of how we went from third world to first. And what were the values and the philosophies of our founding fathers, you know, and and so I borrowed some of that to create Far East Hospitality's offerings

    Ling Yah: When you came up with this concept of Singapore inspired hospitality, it's one thing to have it but you've got to distill it down to your existing portfolio and make sure your people also understand as well.

    I was in a previous company. They also had to come up with a tagline values distill it. It's an entire journey. Constantly trying to remember, make sure that your people know and embody that value.

    Arthur Kiong: Well, actually, thank you very much for that question, because this is something that I think very deeply about, because a company mission and a company slogan is just good on the wall, and then nobody looks at it after that.

    I take a leap from the fact that Far East Organization is a Christian enterprise.

    And as a Christian enterprise, Far East Hospitality, though we are a publicly listed company, we can borrow a great deal of the values of a Christian enterprise.

    And how do we enliven the values of a Christian enterprise? In the process of, so this is my why, I come to the conclusion that my raison d'etre is to be able to bless others in my words and in deed.

    So how can we bless others in our words and deed? So I thought to myself that, you know what? We have to come up with attributes that are actionable, translatable, and they have to be practiced every day by everyone.

    I came up with eleven values which mirrors the values of Far East Organizations and made it into an acronym, called, Acts of Grace.

    It talks about how we're responsible for our own attitude.

    It talks about the customer.

    Because in the hotel world, we're very, very nice to our guests, and then.. Quick, where's the drink, you know?

    And that is two faced, you see, and I don't like that.

    So, you have to treat the internal customer the same as the external customer.

    And teamwork is not a relay. Teamwork is I have to cover for your flaws and you have to cover for mine.

    And savviness as an example would be doing things in a proper procedure. It's not about just doing things right, but you have to do the right thing.

    So these acronyms, you know, talking about O standing for the observation. F standing for the need to fulfill the unexpressed wishes of our guests.

    G talking about gratitude.

    It has acts of grace, right? But the difference is, at the start of every shift, in every hotel, we have the same syllabus of what we want to go through to discuss.

    Where have we done well in enlivening this value? And where have we not?

    Now, if you can get everybody to share openly like this, then you're starting to form a culture.

    A culture that is unique. A culture that is meaningful. And what is it we try to do for our people? There are three things, right?

    First is, we have to be able to pay people. And to be able to pay people well, you have to be, you have to have a successful business.

    Secondly is you have to create a work environment where people want to come to work. Or else, I would rather work from home. But you have to create an environment people like to come to work because they are being with their friends. It means that you've got my back, I've got yours.

    To create that environment is a management's responsibility.

    The third is you have to develop people. Of course you have to provide career progression. But, you have to develop people to become better people.

    How can I help you to be a better daughter? How can I help you to be a better wife? How can I help you be a better friend? You know, that sort of thing.

    And if you can practice these, Attributes at work, you can bring this home. It would it would enhance your life So i've made that my life's mission if you like.

    Ling Yah: What were some of the challenges in having people fully embodies because it's one thing to know the values but to have it. Really really live it that can take some time.

    Arthur Kiong: Well, not everyone is on board so we can try to politicize this culture and I try to role model it.

    I try to be involved in each and every one of the training in order to get to this level.

    And by drawing a clear line in the sand, you will naturally get the reaction of people who are very enthusiastic.

    And there are people who say, ew, this is a weird place. I just want to do my shift and go home and collect my pay. I'm not interested in that.

    At least you have a clear line in the sand. You know where people stand. And over time, you will hopefully have a process of osmosis whereby the people who gravitate to this culture and believe in it are more than the people who resent it.

    Ling Yah: What are some of the challenges that you face as CEO that most people wouldn't see? .

    Arthur Kiong: Well, the thing here is at the executive level, you really don't know what is happening on the ground. So we have to go to the ground. You have to keep your ears close to the ground and you have to go down and solve problems so to speak.

    Generally what is reported to you is a very distilled version.

    What is being preached and what is being practiced may be different and how do you close that gap?

    It doesn't mean that we're perfect. The only difference is we know where we fail and where our flaws are and where we fall short on what is our aspiration. And then we try to close that gap. It's a day to day struggle.

    Ling Yah: And what's that relationship like between the owner and also the CEO as well? Because that's something that people don't normally see.

    Arthur Kiong: The thing is we are a public company. So I report to a board and I have to take direction from a board. But the inspiration of the owning company being a Christian enterprise aligns with my personal values. So that helps and that's very important.

    It is actually a blessing. If the values of your company aligns with your personal values, it's not something to be taken for granted. I cherish and appreciate that every day.

    Ling Yah: We spoke about it briefly as well throughout the interview, this idea of faith and how God's hand has been. Do you feel like you've thought even more about what God is and how the kind of influence he has over our lives?

    Arthur Kiong: Well, I would like to borrow a line from Jordan Peterson. When he's asked, do you believe in God, you know, and he answers , you know what, I live my life as if he exists.

    And I think that at the end of the day has got to be the measure. Do you live your life as if God exists?

    I try to do that to the best of my ability, but I fall short, obviously. But I would say that, you know, my mantra as I wake up each morning is I thank God for this day, because I don't take it for granted that I have this day, considering that I had a triple bypass five years ago. So I never take life for granted, right?

    So I thank God for this day. I believe that it's going to be a marvelous day, and I hope that I'll use it wisely. To do what? To serve others.

    And in doing so, in my words and my deeds, Glorify him.

    Now, do I succeed all the time? Am I the person that I wish that I am? The answer is absolutely not. I fail and I repent of it and I try again to do better.

    Ling Yah: Do you think, and this is a topic that's arisen with some of my previous guests as well who came here earlier, they talk about the fact that our careers have different acts. So Tai Ho, for instance, he's the founder of Channel News Asia and he said my first act was founding Channel News Asia. Going to Myanmar, founding a news channel, founding an entertainment channel.

    Now in my second act, where I'm writing books, wrote for George Yeo, and it was very organic.

    Some people would say, I'm thinking of my second act, you have to plan it 10, 15 years before it happens. I wonder if you've thought about, well, where does it go from there? Sometimes second act is post retirement.

    Arthur Kiong: Well, I wish I had such a brilliant life's plan laid out.

    I couldn't even get past my planning, what am I going to do after my horrendous A levels. So I have to admit that I don't have different acts planned.

    I've been given far more of life than I had hoped.

    If you were to ask me what is my final act, I never thought I could be marketing director of the best hotel in town. If I achieve that, I thought in my lifetime, I will be so content.

    I would want nothing more.

    But I was that at 35!

    So, what's after, right. I have to depend on the almighty to show me what's after because I really I don't know.

    I don't know what's going to happen tomorrow, to be honest with you. I plan, but so what?

    You can't control.

    And that's what surrender means, right? You have to, you have to pray as if it all depends on him and you gotta work as if it all depends on you.

    Ling Yah: Yeah. And for someone who might be starting their career or midway through, going through a quarter life crisis and thinking, what do I do with my career? What kind of advice would you have for them?

    Arthur Kiong: You know what? It's so important to develop a faith.

    If there was no faith, there would be no risk. If there was no risk, there would be no progress. If there's no progress, you'll be stuck in the current situation that you're in presently. And if you're happy where you're in presently, good for you, but there's no guarantee it's gonna be the same way tomorrow.

    And if you're not happy where you are, you've got to have a plan to be able to dig yourself out.

    Now, the thing is, faith in what, you see? What do you, what do you hang your faith on?

    So I think that is something that as individuals we have to explore.

    But I can only tell you from my personal experience what I have encountered.

    Ling Yah: And is there anything that listeners here can help you with?

    Well. I think the fact that you've given me a platform to share, it's itself very edifying. And I prayed a great deal prior to coming on board to have a chat with you, that my words would be a blessing to those who hear.

    Arthur Kiong: It truly has been .

    Arthur, it has been such a huge pleasure to have had you.

    Oh, thank you.

    Ling Yah: I always end with the same questions. So the first is this.

    Do you feel that you have found your why?

    Arthur Kiong: Absolutely. I have found my why because of what I've just mentioned to you. That I live each day hoping to use it wisely in order to serve others and by doing so would glorify my maker.

    That's my why.

    Ling Yah: And I believe they can read more in the book that you have.

    Arthur Kiong: Yes, I have.

    I've recently published a book called Five Stones and a Sling. It chronicles how a Singapore hotel company builds its business and its brand.

    I think it's available for free. You know, anybody who are confronting giants in their lives and confronting obstacles that they feel is insurmountable the book chronicles stories and anecdotes of how people overcome their Setbacks.

    I hope the book will be useful and it's available to everyone who wants to get a copy.

    Ling Yah: And where can they go to get it?

    Arthur Kiong: They just can download at the link which we'll give to you.

    Ling Yah: Alright, perfect. And what about legacy? What kind of legacy do you want to leave behind?

    Arthur Kiong: Oh, I haven't thought that far, my dear.

    I just hope that whatever that I can do in order to bring more grace into the world would endure. That's what I hope because that's what I've experienced in my life.

    Ling Yah: And what do you think are the most important qualities of a successful person?

    Arthur Kiong: Humility and empathy.

    I think that will go a long way to making the world a better place and to making people more successful.

    Ling Yah: And where can people go to find out what you're doing, support everything that you will be doing too?

    Arthur Kiong: Well, I would provide you with the link below and people can reach out to us there.

    Ling Yah: And that was the end of episode 147.

    The show notes and transcript can be found at And just to give a quick shout out to Limpeh Studios. They are the people who made this recording possible. And check out the YouTube version of this interview if you haven't done so already.

    And last but not least, please do subscribe to this podcast if you haven't done so and stick around for next Sunday because we'll be meeting another really incredible leader who has been the CEO of some of the largest O&G companies and also airline companies and now advises government officials and also ministers.

    You don't want to miss this. We'll see you next Sunday.

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